Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT/SPACEDIG/V16_3/V16NO313.TXT

Internet Message Format | 1993-07-13 | 27KB

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 05:00:04
From: Space Digest maintainer <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Subject: Space Digest V16 #313
To: Space Digest Readers
Precedence: bulk


Space Digest                Mon, 15 Mar 93       Volume 16 : Issue 313

Today's Topics:
                             Beyond 1000!
                 cancel wars accountability (7 msgs)
                   Charon: Planet or moon? (3 msgs)
                     Clementine, SDIO, ABM Treaty
                DC-X,Y / SSTO in Spaceflight Magazine
                Delta Clipper (was Re: Fallen Angels)
                            ice transport
                               Planet X
                          Retraining at NASA
                       The courage of anonymity
Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anonymity is NOT the issue (3 msgs)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1993 17:52:52 GMT
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Beyond 1000!
Newsgroups: sci.space

[e-mail] (Hugh Emberson) writes:

>Last weeks Beyond 2000 carried a short piece on Nuclear Rockets,
>including Timberwind and an interview with Dr Zubrin.  They also
>mentioned a test facility for nuclear rockets that (has been
>proposed)/(is awaiting funding)/(is under construction).

>Since we (NZ) seem to get Beyond 2000 before the US this program will
>probably appear in the US sometime in the next couple of months/years.

You only get Beyond 2000! in the US if you've gotten the Discovery
Channel, and we don't; our cable service here is so bad, we had the
"decoder" box disconnected and now all we get are the "normal" channels.

Strangely enough, this includes CNN, TBS, and their science coverage,
which hasn't covered it at all, but does cover a lot about recycling
and the like. I guess "politically correct" agitprop is free, but good
stuff you have to pay for.

>Happy viewing.

>Hugh
>--
>Hugh Emberson -- CS Postgrad
>[e-mail]

I'm just sounding out some disturbing ideas I had, when I realized that
the US _is_ making an "investment" in new high technology that the
people on TV and CNN and in the administration berate us for not
making, and the only coverage on TV of this comes from science
shows out of Oz that most people can't get to watch.

--
Phil Fraering         |"...drag them, kicking and screaming,
[e-mail]|into the Century of the Fruitbat." - Terry Pratchett,
                       _Reaper Man_

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 93 11:04:36 GMT
From: Dave Hayes <[e-mail]>
Subject: cancel wars accountability
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy,sci.space,sci.astro,news.admin.policy

[e-mail] (Tarl Neustaedter) writes:
>What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Would you care to allow us
>to know the names and addresses of your managers and sysadmins?

That's not always true, nor warranted.

>Julf, this attack really extends beyond the pale of what any reasonable
>administrator will condone. Will you finally shut this asshole off?

NO! Reveal his identity now and many knee jerks will forever condemn him/her.
I think the person has sucessfully demonstrated a few foibles in people and
now these people want to crucify. Why not learn from the mistakes and leave
the issue alone?
--
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
[e-mail]       [e-mail]         ...usc!elroy!dxh

               Call on God, but row away from the rocks.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1993 11:09:02 GMT
From: Dave Hayes <[e-mail]>
Subject: cancel wars accountability
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy,sci.space,sci.astro,news.admin.policy

[e-mail] (Jay Maynard) writes:
>I'll say it again: YOU, SIR, ARE A COWARD!

*poing*

The real cowards hide behind the popular sentiment.
--
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
[e-mail]       [e-mail]         ...usc!elroy!dxh

    What seems to be absurdity and is not,
         is better than the ignorance of the man who thinks it is absurd.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 93 13:23:04 GMT
From: Steve Pope <[e-mail]>
Subject: cancel wars accountability
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy,sci.space,sci.astro,news.admin.policy

[e-mail] (Tarl Neustaedter) writes in
response to anon 8785:

> You have a gripe with Mr. D

If the allegation that a Mr. D is out there either
committing or advocating forged cancellations is true (and
I have no idea if this is actually true), then in that case
I think we all have a gripe with this Mr. D.

> Your response is to provide the net at large
> with the addresses and phone numbers of his manager and sysadmin,
> and request that they be mail-bombed.

This is hyperbole.  "mail-bomb" implies that one individual
is sending a large number of messages so as to congest the
recipient.   anon 8785 did not request more than one complaint
from each offended individual.  Therefore this is not a request
for mail-bombing.

It seems that anon 8785 went to the trouble of finding out
how to contact the suspected forger's management, so why shouldn't
he share this information with us?

> Julf, this attack really extends beyond the pale of what any
> reasonable administrator will condone.  Will you finally shut this
> asshole off?

Once again, the anon-haters jump on every little nuance,
real or imagined, of breached ettiquette and claim that now
is the time to shut down the anons.  Sheesh.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 93 15:59:52 GMT
From: David Barr <[e-mail]>
Subject: cancel wars accountability
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy,sci.space,sci.astro,news.admin.policy

In article <1nvbjo$[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Pope) writes:
>This is hyperbole.  "mail-bomb" implies that one individual
>is sending a large number of messages so as to congest the
>recipient.   anon 8785 did not request more than one complaint
>from each offended individual.  Therefore this is not a request
>for mail-bombing.

    A forged sensys is generally considered a "mail bomb"
and this is only one message from every news system.  (In theory,
in actuality it's considerably less)  A mail bomb does not imply
one sender.  It's more effective to have everybody send one
message, rather than one person send lots of meesages.  (Makes
recovery and defense much harder)

--Dave
--
System Administrator, Population Research Institute    [e-mail]
End of article 2565 (of 2565)--what next? [npq]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1993 16:52:34 GMT
From: Wes Morgan <[e-mail]>
Subject: cancel wars accountability
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy,sci.space,sci.astro,news.admin.policy

[e-mail] wrote:
>
>If do not think Richard E. Depew's ([e-mail]) threat to censor
>the postings *you* may wish to read by beginning a "canceling war,"
>a good idea, please write directly to:
>
> [ names/addresses/phone# of presumed superiors deleted ]
>
>Express your concern for this threatened instance of network vandalism and
>damage to academic freedom throughout the world by a reputed representative
>of his organization.


Does this strike anyone else as humorous?

Here's a fellow calling for professional pressure (i.e., "Let's go tell
his boss!") from a pseudonymous address whose stated purpose is to avoid
such social/professional pressures?

"I'm bulletproof, so let's go shoot people!"

Feh.

Did you ever stop to think that he may not even *USE* a machine at
neoucom.edu to do this?  You can do it from a PC at home, a public
access site, or an email-to-news gateway......in fact, I'd *prefer*
to use such a site (if I were to do such things).

You are becoming the very thing you supposedly despise.

--Wes

--
MORGAN@UKCC         |       Wes Morgan       |        ...!ukma!ukecc!morgan
[e-mail]   | University of Kentucky |   [e-mail]
[e-mail] | Lexington,Kentucky USA | [e-mail]
  Mailing list for AT&T StarServer S/E  - [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 93 16:49:37 GMT
From: Jay Maynard <[e-mail]>
Subject: cancel wars accountability
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy,sci.space,sci.astro,news.admin.policy

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>[e-mail] (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>I'll say it again: YOU, SIR, ARE A COWARD!
>The real cowards hide behind the popular sentiment.

That would make me a coward if and only if my view was the popular sentiment.
In this case, since I fully support Dick Depew's approach, that's definitely
not the case.
--
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
[e-mail]      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
        You won't see this on TV: (video of Mount Carmel compound)
        "This is David Koresh, of Waco, Texas. He cannot be seen."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1993 17:39:56 GMT
From: Jan Isley <[e-mail]>
Subject: cancel wars accountability
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy,sci.space,sci.astro,news.admin.policy

[e-mail] writes:
>[e-mail] (Tarl Neustaedter) writes:
>>What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Would you care to allow us
>>to know the names and addresses of your managers and sysadmins?
>
>That's not always true, nor warranted.

Yes, it is.

>>Julf, this attack really extends beyond the pale of what any reasonable
>>administrator will condone. Will you finally shut this asshole off?

Better yet, Julf, speak up here.  Account for the misuse of your system
or turn it off.

>NO! Reveal his identity now and many knee jerks will forever condemn him/her.
>I think the person has sucessfully demonstrated a few foibles in people and
>now these people want to crucify. Why not learn from the mistakes and leave
>the issue alone?

It is not a foible to expect one to be accountable for one's actions, it
is reasonable, adult behavior.  One would think that Dave would have some
personal insight about getting crucified for grossly irresponsible news
admin behavior.  It appears that Dave has learned nothing from his mistakes.

Followups to news.admin.policy.
--
Jan Isley     [e-mail]     mathcs.emory.edu!bagend!jan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 93 16:24:30 GMT
From: "Lowell O Specht Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Charon: Planet or moon?
Newsgroups: sci.space

[e-mail] (Arthur Chandler) writes:


>  I apologize if this question seems to elementary for this group; but
>how else are the uninformed masses going to learn?    :<)
>  Is Charon a moon or a coplanet of Pluto?  And what, if any, are the
>formal distinctions between the two categories?  And finally, is there
>any minimum size for a body to be considered a moon, and not just
>orbiting debris?  In other words, would you call a 2-centimenter rock
>revolving around a planet a moon of that planet?
>  Thanks for the clarification.
>

Charon is a moon of Pluto.  Charon is a satellite of Pluto as it
orbits Pluto and any planetary satellite is considered a moon.
I'm not familiar with the word coplanet. I would consider, say Earth
and Venus to be "coplanets" as they have adjacent orbits around the
Sun.  You might also say the nine planets around the Sun are "coplanets"
in the same solar system.

To answer your last question I would say again that any planetary
satellite, whether it's particle dust or a "moon" :) is a moon of the
planet it orbits.

--
Regards,
Lowell

******************************************************************************
* Lowell Specht                          *                                   *
* Marietta, GA  USA                      *                                   *
* home: [e-mail]                 *      Go Big Orange!               *
* work: [e-mail] *                                   *
******************************************************************************
* My comments are my own and not my employer's.                              *
******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 1993 18:15:04 GMT
From: "Peter J. Scott" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Charon: Planet or moon?
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Arthur Chandler) writes:
>
>   Is Charon a moon or a coplanet of Pluto?

I'd think a reasonable criterion would be whether the barycenter
lies inside the alleged primary or not.  What's the case for
Pluto/Charon?

--
This is news.  This is your       |    Peter Scott, NASA/JPL/Caltech
brain on news.  Any questions?    |    ([e-mail])

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 1993 18:16:27 GMT
From: CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON <[e-mail]>
Subject: Charon: Planet or moon?
Newsgroups: sci.space

It is important to add that the mass ratio of Charon and Pluto are relatively large if
compared with other sattellites/planets in the Solar System and, if I am not wrong,
I guess that the center of mass of Charon and Pluto is somewhere in between the
surfaces of both Charon and Pluto and not below the surface of Pluto as it happens
to the Earth-Moon system. So there is some basis to ask whether Charon can be
considered Pluto's satellite however, it looks like that there is a very good
agreement within the astronomy community that Charon IS indeed Pluto's
satellite.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 93 17:36:09 GMT
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Clementine, SDIO, ABM Treaty
Newsgroups: sci.space

[e-mail] (Pat) writes:


>For Brian who Asked:

>THe ABM treaty, like all other treaties we signed with the SOviet union
>is still in effect.  Our requirement for Recognizing the CIS government and
>the Russian Federal Republic was they blanket accept the treaties in force
>in whole.  THey had the choice of an up or down acceptance.  If they rejected
>any one treaty,  then they were going to have to re-negotiate all of them.

>The prospect of facing jesse helms over 150 times,  was so scary, they signed.
>Even worse, rush limbaugh might have started ranting, and then where would
>we be *gak*.

Don't blame the conservatives! Many of them never liked them to
begin with, mainly because they tend to cast the MAD doctrine
in concrete (or more precisely adamant).

Keep in mind that MAD was something thought up by McNamara et al...
you know, the guy Les Aspin worked for? And they have always been
the most vocal critics of any type of strategic defense.

Just so you know...

>pat

>PS  THe CIS and russians  had to take joint responsibilty for all foreign
>debts.

Saying the Russians and other citizens of the CIS should be responsible
for the debts of previous dictatorial governments would still be slavery
and morally repugnant as such even if they could pay for it... and they
can't. And that the new group of somewhat-elected officials pretends to
agree to it is no excuse: it is an agreement that will probably force the
CIS back into the hands of the stalinists, which makes me wonder of the
motives of those who would sign it.

Peace dividend? By our behavior, the US doesn't even deserve a peace
dividend. For the way we're treating the CIS, we deserve a "war dividend"
where all the money that was to be "invested" (BTW, ever make a bad
investment?) in "infrastructure" (ever see a highway crew at work? Me
neither!) goes to buy a new set of fighter planes to go get destroyed
in five minutes on the Russian Front...

--
Phil Fraering         |"...drag them, kicking and screaming,
[e-mail]|into the Century of the Fruitbat." - Terry Pratchett,
                       _Reaper Man_

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 93 14:03:32 EET
From: [e-mail] (F.Baube x554)
Subject: DC-X,Y / SSTO in Spaceflight Magazine

The March issue of Spaceflight magazine, from the British
Interplanetary Society, has an excellent article on DC-X
and DC-Y.  Five pages, including artwork from McDonnell
Douglas and quite a bit of discussion about making the
economics of spacecraft operation comparable to the
economics of aircraft operation.

A companion four-page article entitled "Spaceplanes -
Back to the Future" discusses the history of the concept,
from proposals by Eugen Sanger on up to the present,
including HOTOL and NASP.

--
* Fred Baube GU/MSFS      * We live in only one small room of the
* Optiplan O.Y.           * enormous house of our consciousness
* [e-mail]       *       -- William James
* It's lo-og, it's lo-og, it's big, it's heavy, it's wood !
* It's lo-og, it's lo-og, it's better than bad, it's good !
* #include <disclaimer.h>

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 93 17:51:16 GMT
From: "Allen W. Sherzer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Delta Clipper (was Re: Fallen Angels)
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Shari L Brooks) writes:

>Assuming full funding for development throughout the project (a tall order I
>know but let's pretend)

Not that tall an order. Peak funding is only around a billion per year and
it is a very fast program.

>will there ever be a DC-Z?

There shouldn't be any need. After DC-Y there should be no reason that
they can't build DC-1.

There are proposals to build a DC-X' or DC-X''. The first is a 2/3
scale suborbital vehicle better suited to sub-orbital flight. The latter
is a full scale version which could with changes achieve orbit.

   Allen
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Allen W. Sherzer | "A great man is one who does nothing but leaves        |
|  [e-mail]     |  nothing undone"                                       |
+----------------------94 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1993 18:18:27 GMT
From: John Papp <[e-mail]>
Subject: ice transport
Newsgroups: sci.space

Thanks to everyone who replied to our articles regarding lunar ice
transport.  Here is what we have so far:

    The transportation system will be by railgun (Try not to groan
    all you pipeline, railroad, truck, tramway people).  The ice
    will be placed on a pod that will accelerate the ice.  There
    should be no interaction with the plasma and ice and heat is
    only transferred by conducition and radiation so there will
    be adquate insulation to keep the ice cold enough.  Accuracy
    is a problem but with and adequate control system, it should
    be maintainable.  Lasers will be used to feedback the speed of
    the pod and a satallite tracking system will be able to
    monitor location throughout the flight so the mass catcher
    will be in the right place.

That is only a brief description.  I will not comment on the mass
catcher because I am not that familiar with it.

If anyone wants to get a summary of our report (due this
Wednesday 3/17) for a more detailed description of how things are
handled, e-mail to the below address.  Due to exams and final projects,
I will not be able to 'hold my own' and defend our decisions about
the railgun and mass catcher.  When their over, I will have time
to respond to everyone's remarks (I saved them to a file).

Thanks again.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
|                  |                            |
| John L. Papp        | "You sound like a manure salesman   |
| [e-mail]  |  with a mouth full of samples."     |

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 93 18:24:32 GMT
From: CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON <[e-mail]>
Subject: Planet X
Newsgroups: sci.space

I do not know if it is right place to post an article like that but let us give a try...

Sometime ago I read an article in Sky and Telescopy about the discoverer of Pluto,
Clyde W. Tombaugh (may be I have mispelled his name). He contended that, based
in his earlier work and from gravitational data from the Pioneers and Voyagers
spacecraft,  there was NO planet beyond Pluto  howeverJhe did not came forward
with an explanation for the perturbation in the orbits of Uranus and Neptune! So
here you are, certain astronomers, in order to explain deviations in the orbits of
these two planets,   postulate the existence of a 10th, yet undetectable, planet in the
solar System  and comes Pluto's discoverer and say that there is no 10th planet but
does not offer any explanation of the orbit deviation of the other planets. How
come??? Is there anyone in the NET who can explain Tombaugh's position???

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 93 09:33 PST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Retraining at NASA
Newsgroups: sci.space

yes, the nasa culture is sick.
but not as sick as the entire aerospace industry!

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 93 10:25:50 CDT
From: "David L. Cathey" <[e-mail]>
Subject: The courage of anonymity
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy,sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Dave Hayes) writes:
> [e-mail] (Melinda Shore) writes:
>>> And I ask you: How many people here give different weight to ideas on
>>>Usenet based on the author?
>>I do, often.  Over the years you come to know that certain
>>people know what they're talking about, while others are
>>monomaniacal crackpots.
>
> Interesting. Especially interesting is the assumption of discrete
> binary values placed on what appears (to me) to be a continuous phenomena.
>
> Is it possible for a "monomaniacal crackpot" to relate "valid" concepts?

    Yes, but it would not be an efficient use of my time looking there
for it (bad signal/noise ratio).

> Is it possible for a "reputable" source to be relating "invalid" concepts?

    Yes, but less likely since the "reputable" source has made efforts to
insure validity, else they would not be "reputable".

>>gay-related newsgroups.  This is a problem that I'd very
>>much like to see go away - nobody should post unless
>>they're willing and able to take responsibility for the
>>contents of their articles.  Period.
>
> But people _do_ post. Are you trying to make a "should be" a "reality"?

    I also feel there are valid reasons for anon posting.  However, the
current anon birdbrain who posted the Challenger crap is an example that you
can't make a silk purse from a pigs ear.  The guy is an idiot, and hiding
behind a anon address does not somehow absolve him of being an idiot.
He proclaims using anon accounts as adding to "truthfullness" to ideas, and
then wonders why he gets flamed for posting trash.  If anything, it is people
like him that HURT honest anon posters.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David L. Cathey                        |INET: [e-mail]
Montagar Software Concepts              |UUCP: ...!montagar!davidc
P. O. Box 260772, Plano TX  75026-0772  |Fone: (214)-618-2117

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 93 10:43:35 GMT
From: Dave Hayes <[e-mail]>
Subject: Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anonymity is NOT the issue
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy

[e-mail] (Bill Stewart [phone]) writes:
>Can you set up an appropriately designed killfile to
>kill clumsily-forged cancel messages?  My guess is that if you can,
>it would probably include a filter to kill all cancellation messages
>from well-known anonymous-posting sites,
>which is an interesting *anti*censorship application.
>Perhaps it could also automagically generate responses mailed to the assassin,
>until he publicly recants?

Even better...set it up so that cancel messages from daemons cause the message
to be REPOSTED with "stealth" headers. (Stealth headers are ones that make
no sense and cannot be pattern matched.)

If this ever gets that out of hand...I think I'll give up being a news admin
and go study in a monastery in Tibet. <grin>
--
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
[e-mail]       [e-mail]         ...usc!elroy!dxh

         Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 93 10:45:07 GMT
From: Dave Hayes <[e-mail]>
Subject: Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anonymity is NOT the issue
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy

[e-mail] writes:
>[e-mail] writes:
>    "Two wrongs does not make a right."
>Quite so -- I'm not recommending it.  But in order to have applied that
>aphorism, you must have acknowledged that what Johan is doing is wrong.

Not exactly. One could be merely trying to use the symbols of a worldview
to communicate the absurdity of an action without alienating the target
of the communication...
--
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
[e-mail]       [e-mail]         ...usc!elroy!dxh

With a jar on his back, a blind man walked at night, holding a lamp. A
passer-by said: "What ignorance. Day and night is the same for you and
you're carrying a lamp in the dark!"

"The light is for blind people like you so that they won't knock against

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1993 18:12:00 GMT
From: Bill Stewart [phone] <[e-mail]>
Subject: Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anonymity is NOT the issue
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dave Hayes) writes:
   If this ever gets that out of hand...I think I'll give up being a news admin
   and go study in a monastery in Tibet. <grin>

Hey, if you do, please be careful with that "9 Billion Names of God" program -
that was a large enough number 20 years ago, when computers were big, slow,
and expensive, but these days a 486 laptop ought to be able to end the world
pretty quickly :-)
--
#                Pray for peace;      Bill
# Bill Stewart 1-908-949-0705 [e-mail] AT&T Bell Labs 4M312 Holmdel NJ
# I seem to be ranting again - sorry :-)

------------------------------

End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 313
------------------------------